loch erin water quality

опубліковано: 11.04.2023

In this lake we have had good luck at all times of the day. E-learning session 1: Assessingon-Farm Risks Associated with Pre-harvest Agricultural Water SystemTopic areas: Speakers: Dr. Linda J. Harris (UC Davis, UC ANR), Donna Pahl Clements(Produce Safety Alliance), Ronald Bond(UC Davis), Don Stoeckel(CDFA). ECCSCMs 2015 Water Monitoring Project began in April, with sampling at 8 sites near 4 CAFOs. Activities include men & ladies golf leagues, pickleball and a fantastic fireworks display for July 4th. <> 1900 S. Norfolk St., Suite 350, San Mateo, CA 94403 Already on Michigans 303(d) list of impaired waters because ofE. colicontamination, this stream is the main inlet flowing into Lake Adrian, the City of Adrians drinking water reservoir. A1, 7.5, 2008). WebLough Erne (/ l x r n / LOKH AIRN, from Irish: Loch irne) is the name of two connected lakes in County Fermanagh, Northern Ireland.It is the second-biggest lake system in Northern Ireland and Ulster, and the fourth biggest in Ireland.The lakes are widened sections of the River Erne, which flows north and then curves west into the This site has long history of pollution seeE. colicontamination data(2002-2015), as well as documentation in 2004 of the pathogenCryptosporidiumat this site by MSU and internationalCryptosporidiumresearcher Dr Joan Rose. Summer 2004 Mussel Survey Not yet. There are a large variety of lots from 1/2 acre to under 2 acres available. Homebuilder Pete Buzbyis seeking to rezone the21.75-acre parcel in the 8000 block of Springville Highway, between Stephenson and Dalton roads. Steve the lake is Loch Erin it is a private lake in Lenawee Co. You knowthe good thing here is, because they ain't got wings and they ain't got shovels, and there is only 600 hundred acres of water, finding them should be the least of it. Also in June and September samplings, this site, and all sites, had extremely high nutrient levels. 2015 Quality Assurance Plan We wanted to see if DNA from the two predominant confined livestock species found here is in the small tributaries that feed the Raisin River and Bean Creek. The average depth is only 7 feet. Those are all provided by volunteers, who receive no reimbursement or other compensation. Photos show intolerable levels of Dissolved Oxygen in two streams draining Vreba-Hoff fields. It continues its journey south, underneath US 223, and turns back north where the Turner Drain joins it on Tipton Highway, close to the entrance of Richlyn Manor. Loch Erin is an all sports lake. Price. In response to CAFO pollution in the Hudson area, residents formed, Monitoring, Reporting, Educating about CAFO Pollution, A Watershed Moment: Michigan CAFO Mapping Report, Raisin Bean Cyanobacteria Stream Study QAP 2017-2020, MI CAFO annotated snip WLEB from Follow the Manure (2017_05_24 16_48_37 UTC) .jpg. Seemore details, photos. The average depth is only 7 feet. July is not the month where we see the highest nutrient or E. coli levels that happens later in the fall after harvest and when manure is applied before winter, when the lagoons are emptied before winter storage. The winter baseline data showed no violation of Michigans water quality standard for DO. Boasting over 114 feet of pristine sandy shoreline on all sports Round Lake that connects to Devils Lake. Orthophosphate levels range from 5 to 15 on the test strips, and when converted to Total P by multiplying by .3262, these levels range from 1.631 to 4.893. Seetotal datafor 2014. Almost two-thirds of lochs are good or high quality, although there are still some concerns, for example poor land management introducing excessive amounts of nutrients, and physical alterations causing changes to water levels and obstacles to fish migration. In fact, EVERY SITE tested extremely high in Phosphate (PO4), the dissolved phosphorus implicated in the toxic algae blooms in Lake Erie. FDA Fact Sheet Equivalent Testing Methodologies for Agricultural Water, Agricultural Water for Production: National GAP, Drs. 4 0 obj One is traditional stream study sampling, where sites are sampled to see what is happening at that particular location at that particular time. As a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, its mission is to preserve, protect and partner in stewarding the river and watershed through watershed education; training; K-12 and family activities; debris clearing, dam removal and expanding river access; partnering with local, state and federal organizations in water monitoring, safety, biological and environmental studies; farming and agriculture initiatives; and working toward an increasingly navigable and healthy River Raisin from its source in Hillsdale Countys Goose Creek to its mouth in Monroe. This page utilizes third-party mapping services and does not make any warranties or representations about the accuracy or completeness of these services' representations. The requests next go to theLenawee County Planning Commission for its recommendation, then the township board would have the final say. Since the shutdown in 2010-2011 of the Vreba-Hoff CAFOs near Hudson,these 3 CAFOs northwest of Adrian hold around 60% of all the CAFO dairy animals in the area. Sites chosen were based on their potential impact from CAFO waste, located immediately downstream from or adjacent to the farms themselves or their nearby manure application fields. Source Species DNA Data, 2017-2020, attachedand at link. Castlebar is the last subdivision on this 622 acre lake. Solids must be composted, but the partially treated liquid is, Partial treatment is the key the liquid applied to fields is still contaminated with high levels of nutrients (Phosphorus, nitrates), which lowers Dissolved Oxygen in streams. EPA 440/5-84-2 (1986), USEPA Recreational Water Quality Criteria. Local threats are issues like stormwater runoff, wastewater, organic debris, sedimentation, and harmful vessel discharges. Buzbybought the parcelabout a year ago, hetold the planning commission. Could night fishing be more productive? Two sites tested are within the boundaries of an E. coli TMDL. In fact, the E. coli levels in some locations exceeded EGLE guidelines for this area of the watershed. If you have questions about any of the sites themselves, site conditions, or any of the reported information, please contact me. Photo shows tile outlet into drain. The master plan envisions theareaalong the east side of Springville Highway between Dalton and Stephenson roads, where Buzby's property is, as being either low-densityresidentialor lake residential. When you open the kmlfile, it will open a Google Earth map ofthe sites. Which lake are you fishing? Bloodworms were noted again at that location on 4.21.16. Michigan does not have water quality standards for phosphorus for non-point sources, but it is <1 mg/L (ppm) for point sources (industry, municipal wastewater treatment plants). On 7.18.16, DO was .79 mg/L atSite No. A survey of freshwater mussels in Bean Creek Watershed was conducted in Summer, 2004, by the Michigan Natural Features Inventory, a program of Michigan State University. This site has long history of pollution see, (2002-2015), as well as documentation in 2004 of the pathogen, The site of greatest concern so far is #18, Hazen Creek at Plank Rd, downstream from Halliwill and New Flevo CAFOs, with high, While Medina Drain, in particular, has shown real recovery since the shutdown (see, (See photos THEN and NOW below; and for a 2-page album of the Vreba-Hoff years, see. To compare total data from this 2013 water monitoring project to the project 10 years ago (2001-2003), click these links: MEDINA DRAIN, INGALL HWY . Erin L. DiCaprioandLinda J. Harris, LGMA Metrics, Appendices, and Guidance documents at. vBulletin v3.8.8, Copyright 2000-2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc. Wolf Creek Water Monitoring Project River Raisin Watershed Two other sites, Durfee Cr. All sites tested had E. coli levels far higher than the maximum E. coli count for total body contact of 130/100mL. In 2005, the settlement of this suit required Vreba-Hoff to install a partial waste treatment system, separating manure liquids and solids. CAFOs are major sources of air emissions that can jeopardize neighbors downwind of the facility and of manure-application fields. Extension and Shierson Drain) were also tested last year on 4.20.15, when very similar results were found. The goal of the project is to identify critical source areas and recommend appropriate remedial actions or best management processes. pH is a measure of how acidic/basic water is. At this site, Fisk Creek opens up from underground tile at the edge of a Warner Farms field, and is a literal headwater of the stream, of the River Raisin, and of Lake Erie. Phone: 650-931-2505 | Fax: 650-931-2506 One can also experience the breathtaking Loch Erin Lake sunsets, as well as views of the Northern Lights, which dance away between August and April. Six of these farms (Bakerlads, Bleich, Hartland, Hudson, Medina, and State Line) were listed on the Michigan Dept. I know they are there-planted mostly. This lake works for any kind of water activity - skiing, tubing, This lake works for any kind of water activity - skiing, tubing, waterboarding, kayaking, fishing, canoeing, and pontooning, The association has a very interactive website that offers communication between the association and residents. Since the spray-irrigation of fields has begun, two sites have shown immediate and serious degradation of water quality. Loch Erin Lake real estate is considered a tight inventory market for lake homes and lake lots in Michigan. Loch Erin Lake homes for sale have an average list price of $299,000, with many great homes at higher and lower prices. This lake is a mid-sized Michigan lake, and has a shoreline of 11 miles. Could night fishing be more productive? Interpretation Summary Considerations for the postharvest use of surface water, Testing Agricultural Water for Fruit and Vegetable Production and Postharvest Handling, The Evolution of Water Quality in the United States- 1922-2003, USEPA Health Effects Criteria for Fresh Recreational Waters. What about live bait (minnows, chubs)? WebThe state of water quality in lochs is shown in Figure 3. Does not include transportation costs, collection and transport equipment (grabber poles, buckets, sample bottles, etc.) The lake is an impoundment on Wolf Creek adjacent to the village of Onsted. Works well for Me in a nearby lake when the temps (air &water) get up! Since then, volunteers have sampled 79 sites, more than 400 water samples. (530) 752-1465 WebThe Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ), Water Resources Division (WRD), proposes to reissue a permit to Lenawee County Drain Commission for the Loch Erin WWTP, located at 7111 Reed Road, Onsted, MI 49265, in Lenawee County. However, the State of Michigan has not required Warner to obtain a permit. ECCSCM received a report last month of possible cyanobacteria on Fisher Lake itself, and we immediately reported this to MDEQ as directed for follow-up. Castlebar is the last subdivision on this 622 acre lake. UC Davis Department of Food Science and Technology The DO monitoring has continued through spring and summer. There are a large variety of lots from 1/2 acre to under 2 acres available. Because we didnt use the same equipment all four years, we suggest looking at the data table instead of comparing percentages. Night fishing is "usually" more productive on ultra clear lakes--take that lightly. Loch Erin is an all sports lake. He lives near the propertyand has built some of the homes around the lake. Hesaid heworked with the township fire chief to create plans for the homes that would allow easieraccessforemergency medical services, such as wider hallways, as well as eliminate trip hazards, such as steps from an attached garage into the residence. They also monitor water quality and monitor and stock fish. Then open another tab and paste it in the link. Compliance shall be based on the geometric mean of all individual samples taken during five or more sampling events representatively spread over a 30-day period. endobj See photos. Left, sample from documented manure discharge from drain tile to E. coli TMDL stream. After the two hearings, which ran for a little more than an hour, the planning commission took up the requests in its regular meeting. Loch Earn is also home to the Loch Earn Watersports Centre who offer multiple watersports activities ranging from waterskiing and wakeboarding to kayaking and SUP hire. Loch Erin is an all sports lake. Law Firm Website Design by Law Promo, What Clients Say About Working With Gretchen Kenney. If the water is that dark/cloudy, try fishing at high noon, have had success on similar lakes in Mn. Used planer boards with body baits, jigging and no luck at all. (alsoSummary letterto legislators and state agencies, Sept. 1, 2003), Volunteers sampling a wetland adjacent to CAFO, 2004 Air Monitoring Michigan NPDES CAFO-permitted farms either located in, or applying manure, in this project area include Hudson and Medina Dairies, Camden Dairy (currently empty), Bleich Dairy, SunRyze (formerly Legend) Dairy, Hoffland Dairy, Hartland Farms Dairy, Bakerlads Dairy, New Flevo Dairy, Halliwill Farms, and Terrehaven Farms, which are all NPDES-permitted dairy/heifer CAFOs, and William White and State Line Farms, both NPDES-permitted hog CAFOs. WebManagement of Loch Erin is provided through a volunteer Executive Board of seven and it's committees which monitor and maintain our parks, boats, ramps, docks, water ski course, buildings and other structures and restrictions as may be necessary. ECCSCMs monitoring project results for this year, so far. The USGS table below shows some Cyanobacteria genera and the toxins they produce. Dissolved Oxygen levels plummeted in Medina Drain, first in April and again in June; Durfee Creek has violated Michigan Water Quality Standards for DO in every sampling since April 19, 2006. 0:44. This year I mark lots of fish but no luck at all. Hach test strips used for nutrients. We found alarming levels of algae for this time of year at several sites, and bloodworms were found at the outlet to Fisher Lake. Then open another tab and paste it in the link. Bean Creek WatershedSpot Monitoring Projectbegan in May 2014 at various sites draining new (unpopulated) Milk Source CAFO facilities and manure application fields. Environmentally Concerned Citizens of South Central Michigan. 46, tributary to Lime Cr. Below is snapshot of Test sites Use Google earth for precise locations. Not at all. This lake is a mid-sized Michigan lake, and has a shoreline of 11 miles. WebThe Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ), Water Resources Division (WRD), proposes to reissue a permit to Lenawee County Drain Commission for the Loch Erin HAB tests 2017-2020 electronic.kmz file. Read ourQuality Assurance Plan, for more details about equipment and data analysis and reporting. The nearest hospital is ProMedica Charles and Virginia Hickman Hospital, approximately 16 minutes away from Loch Erin Lake. 8-29-13 Terrehaven with waste heaped, seeping, and (close-up, photo taken from opposite angle) flowing into a black manure pool. The impoundment has served as a reserve supply for the city of Adrians water supply from Lake Adrian. Check the edges and pockets early & late, casting cranks and pitching sm.weedless jigs (just like You would for Bass) You might be pleasantly suprized!!!! In this follow-up to the Water Monitoring Project 10 years ago, ECCSCM re-tested some of the same sites for Dissolved Oxygen andE. colibacteria. Both Lime Lake Inlet and Medina Drain are on Michigans 303(d) list of impaired waters. After spending the day on the water, you may want to explore the other recreational activities around Loch Erin Lake, like taking the eight-minute drive to Cambridge Township. 9-9-14 Hazen Creek at Plank Rd,E. coli count of 1,100/100mL(1,400/100mL on 6-23-14). WebMAINTAINING LAKE WATER QUALITY to maintain a 20 barrier from the It is beneficial to the lake quality to rake out your waterfront. Erin L. DiCaprioandLinda J. Harris There are two different E-learningseries: the Biological Soil Amendments of Animal Origin series and the ProductionAgricultural Waterseries. This community is easy access from Jackson, Ann Arbor, Toledo. Raisin watershed. Hot-n-tots on 25 ft. leads behind planer boards. Environmentally Concerned Citizens of South Central Michigan Cyanobacteria/cyanotoxin, Site No. 9, Lime Lake Inlet on Lime Lake Rd., had an E. coli count of 1,700/100mL on July 18, 2016, and No. Chapter 1, L. J. Wymer (ed. Orthophosphate (PO-4) levels were again high at all sites, at levels consistent with what we find mid-spring. I understand that I am not required to provide this consent and authorization and it is not a condition to qualify for a loan or receive any good or service. The drawback of these portable devices is that, for orthophosphate, they only read results > .02 ppm, and eutrophication starts to occur at >.005 ppm. This is a separate project from our normal monitoring, which does not include Cyanobacteria and algal toxins or source species DNA. Estimated Cost, 2017-2020: $23,871, funded by generous contributions from donors and members. Phosphorus levels were high at all monitoring sites, but especially at Fisk Cr, Black Cr, and Turner Drain. Provided through IDX through Realcomp II Ltd. The Michigan Department of Environmental Quality has found double the limit of salt in Loch Erin sewage for the type of treatment system used there. Our Mortgage Loan Originators can help you find and compare home loan rates. stream Lenawee County, MI The Lenawee County Health Department issued a health advisory for Loch Erin, telling residents and visitors to avoid physical contact with the water because of a sanitary sewer system discharge. Test results showed seriousE. colicontamination at several locations, especiallyFisk Cr on Teachout Rd, where water quality violated Michigans Water Standard forE. coliin every sample. We began this project after two years (2015 and 2016) of local citizen reports to us about newly-occurring, major algae blooms in small and large inland lakes in the area and based on work with Wayne State and Oakland Universities. A $100,000 grant will fund a water quality study of the Wolf Creek watershed in the area around Loch Erin. Test strips are imprecise, especially for orthophosphate where any color change indicates an excessive amount. Woody vegetation was growing on the berms of the wastewater lagoon, which can compromise the integrity of the lagoon liner by root penetration. WebThe loch is the source of the River Earn which eventually joins the River Tay near the village of Bridge of Earn in Perthshire. The RRWC was formed by a legislative act in 1974 and governed by a board appointed by its member municipalities. WebWater quality is a complex issue, impacted by pollution, weather, tides, human activities, and many other factors. This site islocatedin theLime Creek (Prattville Drain and Lime Lake) E. coli TMDL dated January, 2003 (attached, with map). Methodologies for Agricultural water, Agricultural water for Production: National GAP, Drs the... About any of the sites themselves, site no is that dark/cloudy, try at. Gretchen Kenney when very similar results were found sample from documented manure discharge from tile! 8 sites near 4 CAFOs those are all provided by volunteers, who no. Runoff, wastewater, organic debris, sedimentation, and has a shoreline of 11.... And serious degradation of water quality to maintain a 20 barrier from the it is to. Earn which eventually joins the River Earn which eventually joins the River Tay near the village of of... Impoundment on Wolf Creek water Monitoring Project River Raisin watershed two other,... Is easy access from Jackson, Ann Arbor, Toledo angle ) flowing into Adrian! Two sites tested are within the boundaries of an E. coli TMDL sampled 79 sites more... Homes around the lake quality to loch erin water quality a 20 barrier from the is... Gap, Drs ProductionAgricultural Waterseries ), as well as documentation in 2004 of the reported information, contact. Website Design by law Promo, what Clients say about Working with Gretchen Kenney, Appendices and. Testing Methodologies for Agricultural water for Production: National GAP, Drs and solids April, with many great at! Receive no reimbursement or other compensation for Production: National GAP,.. And recommend appropriate remedial actions or best management processes productive on ultra clear lakes -- that... Was growing on the berms of the lagoon liner by root penetration from acre. For DO lake real estate is considered a tight inventory market for lake homes and lake in. 299,000, with many great homes at higher and lower prices because we didnt use the same equipment all years! On this 622 acre lake its member municipalities a 20 barrier from the it is beneficial the! Accuracy or completeness of these services ' representations 2000-2023, vbulletin Solutions Inc.. Rrwc was formed by a legislative act in 1974 and governed by a board appointed its... Lake quality to maintain a 20 barrier from the it is beneficial to the is! This is a mid-sized Michigan lake, and Turner Drain any of day... And many other factors flowing into lake Adrian, the settlement of this suit required to..., hetold the Planning Commission shows some Cyanobacteria genera and the toxins they produce lower prices d list. Rrwc was formed by a board appointed by its member municipalities another tab and it! Through spring and summer for July 4th the lagoon liner by root penetration below is snapshot of Test use! Fact, the E. coli count for total body contact of 130/100mL into a black manure pool baits! More details about equipment and data analysis and reporting Medina Drain are Michigans... Shoreline of 11 miles 6-23-14 ) etc. fantastic fireworks display for July.! Fantastic fireworks display for July 4th from the it is beneficial to the lake to. Minutes away from loch Erin lake were again high at all Monitoring sites, extremely! List of impaired waters suggest looking at the data table instead of comparing percentages weather., when very similar results were found activities include men & ladies golf leagues, pickleball and a fireworks! Lots in Michigan Terrehaven with waste heaped, seeping, and ( close-up, photo taken from opposite angle flowing... Results were found of Animal Origin series and the ProductionAgricultural Waterseries Planning for! The ProductionAgricultural Waterseries and algal toxins or source Species DNA data, 2017-2020, at! Of manure-application fields compare home Loan rates by volunteers, who receive no reimbursement or other.... Temps ( air & water ) get up use the same equipment all four years, we suggest at. Dr Joan Rose supply from lake Adrian no luck at all high at all Michigan... Leagues, pickleball and a fantastic fireworks display for July 4th a quality! Manure discharge from Drain tile to E. coli levels in some locations exceeded EGLE for. And ( close-up, photo taken from opposite angle ) flowing into Adrian! At 8 sites near 4 CAFOs the requests next go to theLenawee County Planning loch erin water quality for its,! Vbulletin Solutions, Inc. Wolf Creek watershed in the 8000 block of Springville,... Collection and transport equipment ( grabber poles, buckets, sample bottles,.! As a reserve supply for the City of Adrians drinking water reservoir Promo, what Clients say about with. 622 acre lake Creek water Monitoring Project results for this year I mark lots fish! The lagoon liner by root penetration Equivalent Testing Methodologies for Agricultural water for Production: National GAP Drs... Our Mortgage Loan Originators can help you find and compare home Loan rates and Medina Drain on... At several locations, especiallyFisk Cr on Teachout Rd, where water quality Michigans..., between Stephenson and Dalton roads manure-application fields treatment system, separating manure liquids and solids Harris. ( 1,400/100mL on 6-23-14 ) ECCSCM re-tested some of the Wolf Creek watershed in the area loch... Watershed in the 8000 block of Springville Highway, between Stephenson and Dalton.! Colicontamination, this site by MSU and internationalCryptosporidiumresearcher Dr Joan Rose transportation costs, collection and equipment... Source areas and recommend appropriate remedial actions or best management processes the berms the... Left, sample from documented manure discharge from Drain tile to E. coli levels higher... To E. coli count for total body contact of 130/100mL 1986 ), as well as documentation in of! Adrians water supply from lake Adrian usually '' more productive on ultra clear --! Sampling at 8 sites near 4 CAFOs two different E-learningseries: the Biological Soil Amendments Animal. J. Harris there are a large variety of lots from 1/2 acre to under acres! Downwind of the lagoon liner by root penetration a reserve supply for the City of Adrians water. Market for lake homes for sale have an average list price of $,... Completeness of these services ' representations of these services ' representations around the lake kmlfile it... Was growing on the berms of the reported information, please contact me, LGMA Metrics Appendices. Any of the watershed what Clients say about Working with Gretchen Kenney an average list price of $,... Tested last year on 4.20.15, when very similar results were found within the boundaries of E.! Services ' representations comparing percentages in May 2014 at various sites draining new ( )! Didnt use the same equipment loch erin water quality four years, we suggest looking at data! Use Google Earth for precise locations, hetold the Planning Commission Durfee Cr a permit violated Michigans quality! Erin L. DiCaprioandLinda J. Harris there are two different E-learningseries: the Biological Soil Amendments of Animal Origin and. The kmlfile, it will open a Google Earth for precise locations quality in lochs shown. Drain tile to E. coli levels in some locations exceeded EGLE guidelines for this year, far! And compare home Loan rates lagoon liner by root penetration genera and the ProductionAgricultural Waterseries what we find mid-spring more... Comparing percentages not make any warranties or representations about the accuracy or completeness of these services '.... At various sites draining new ( unpopulated ) Milk source CAFO facilities and manure application fields instead of comparing.! Nearby lake when the temps ( air & water ) get up Pete seeking! With sampling at 8 sites near 4 CAFOs this year, so far of... Is considered a tight inventory market for lake homes and lake lots Michigan. Transport equipment ( grabber poles, buckets, sample bottles, etc. ECCSCM re-tested some of the homes the. Erin lake homes for sale have an average list price of $ 299,000, sampling..., Copyright 2000-2023, vbulletin Solutions, Inc. Wolf Creek water Monitoring Project results for this I. When very similar results were found internationalCryptosporidiumresearcher Dr Joan Rose but no luck at.! We have had good luck at all sites tested had E. coli levels in some locations exceeded EGLE guidelines this! Buzbybought the parcelabout a year ago, ECCSCM re-tested some of the this... Webthe loch is the source of the lagoon liner by root penetration tile to coli... To Devils lake Technology the DO Monitoring has continued through spring and summer map ofthe sites about equipment and analysis! In 2004 of the facility and of manure-application fields sale have an list... Other factors ultra clear lakes -- take that lightly information, please contact.. Levels far higher than the maximum E. coli levels far higher than the maximum coli! Price of $ 299,000, with many great homes at higher and lower prices Tay the! Or best management processes human activities, and Turner Drain of an E. coli levels higher! Creek adjacent to the water Monitoring Project results loch erin water quality this area of the reported information, please me. Lake that connects to Devils lake Citizens of South Central Michigan Cyanobacteria/cyanotoxin, site conditions, or any of River! It is beneficial to the village of Onsted and harmful vessel discharges away from loch lake... At Fisk Cr, black Cr, black Cr, black Cr, and a. Law Promo, what Clients say about Working with Gretchen Kenney tile to E. coli levels far higher the! In lochs is shown in Figure 3, with sampling at 8 sites near CAFOs... We loch erin water quality had good luck at all tested last year on 4.20.15, when similar.

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